Talk:Automatic block signaling

Citation details for railway bulletins, etc.

@Sturmovik: Thank you for adding those two references. Are you working from hard copies that you own? If so, would you add more specifics such as the volume, date, publisher, and page number (as applicable)? If not, would you add the URLs? Thanks again. — voidxor 22:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Railroad rulebook rule numbers are unique identifiers for the cited information. Page numbers aren't necessarily a reliable as the books can be printed in different formats. The CTC document is Union Switch and Signal promotional material that describes the operational advantages of their product. It doesn't have a publisher or volume etc. I feel like you are somehow upset that I provided citations for the basic information you were objecting to.Sturmovik (talk) 13:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not upset at all; I'm just trying to keep things verifiable. Thank you for citing. Page numbers or not, I was struggling to figure out what those sources are, exactly (e.g. book, journal, magazine, website) so that others can find them. I asked here and didn't get a response at first.

You seem to be of the mindset that references aren't needed unless somebody "objects", which is patently false. I linked you to WP:BURDEN from the get-go and you copped an attitude and reverted twice without proper explanation. Maybe go read the policies before assuming the motivations of others.

Anyway, that's in the past (hopefully). Thanks again for helping to improve this article. — voidxor 19:16, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Gutting articles does not improve them. I don't know why you are motivated to leave this and other articles disjoint stubs.Sturmovik (talk) 22:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

That's not fair. I am motivated to get rid of the uncited ramble that gives Wikipedia a bad reputation. It's also against policy and I've repeatedly pointed you to several relevant policies and guidelines. I tagged this article over eight years ago; you've had plenty of time to help verify it. Sometimes you have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh. And if we get rid of some of the cruft in the meantime, that's a good thing. We should focus on the automatic block method of operation, as you suggested below. — voidxor 16:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

References about overlap

This content-related discussion was moved from User talk:Voidxor § Automatic block signaling.

I had also added the official website as well as the website you said was the reason for you deleting it but why when I had included a another score about overlaps on Automatic block signaling so why was it removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow your question. First, railwaysignallingconcepts.in is somebody's WordPress blog. They never give their name other than attributing each post to "admin". I ran a whois search as well, but it just says that the registrant is REDACTED FOR PRIVACY. It is clearly not an official website.

Secondly, I moved your sentence about the use of overlap from the History section to the Basic Operation section. It has nothing to do with history. Look at my diff again; I did not delete it. — voidxor 15:01, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-Automatic signals

Do Semi-Automatic signals come under Automatic Block Signaling?--I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 17:39, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

It is currently mentioned in at least two places, but the definition of it seems to vary by region:

• North American railroad signals § Signal types
• Polish railway signalling § Semi-automatic signals

— voidxor 18:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This page is intended to cover the Automatic Block method of operation, not specifically automatic signals. I just noticed that half the page was deleted back in 2018 so when I get that restored it will be more clear. Anyway, because semi-automatic signals are controlled they should likely be covered under Interlocking.Sturmovik (talk) 14:32, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Anything uncited can be removed at any time. The encyclopedia is not a blog to ramble about one's favorite topic with the expectation that others have to take it for gospel or find references themselves. Let's please work to cite as we go. — voidxor 19:29, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

What about automatic signals with signal replacement keys to change the aspect from the least restrictive aspect the signal can show under the conditions to the most restrictive aspect normally Danger?--I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 20:20, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

What about what?? Could you explain to someone knowledgeable in German, Austrian, Swiss, and (somewhat) American signalling what you are talking about? Thank you! (especially, what is a "signal replacement key"?) --User:Haraldmmueller 20:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

@Haraldmmueller: This is what I am talking about with automatic signal replacement to most restrictive aspect without the passage of a train.A video partly about automatic signal replacement keys.--I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 21:15, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you - I watched all of it! I am always astonished at what various rail companies or countries come up with in signalling and rules territory ... I'd say that this is a local British "custom" we are seeing there, isn't it? Definitely there's no comparable procedure and technology (switches at signals!) in Central Europe, and also not in the Americas, I'd believe. --User:Haraldmmueller 21:33, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

The singular concepts of an automatic signal, semi-automatic signal and controlled signal should likely be placed into a section in Railway signaling if it is not there already. Specific details of how to tell them apart would go in nation/region specific signaling pages. I should mention that the entire concept of semi-automatic signals largely vanished with the adoption of relay and solid state interlockings as pretty much any controlled signal can be set to act like an automatic. The key takeaways of automatic block signaling as a method is that 1) signals act in an automatic nature and 2) there is no traffic control (bi-directional) mechanism. The part that needs to be replaced is bi-directional ABS systems where protection from opposing moves is provided without traffic control. I have the references for this, but I first need the free time to actually write the section and I also am trying to determine if there are/were any instances bi-directional ABS without any automatic protection from opposing movements. That's important to how the section will prevent the topic.Sturmovik (talk) 14:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Signals ID plates

This content-related discussion was moved from User talk:Voidxor § Automatic block signals ID plate.

Automatic block signals ID plates are very important for working out weather a block signal is a manual block signal or a Semi-automatic Block Signal or Automatic Block Signal. I would say it is as important as knowing how it works. I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 09:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure that's a very important distinction to train operators in the UK, and perhaps of interest to railfans. It's too specific for Wikipedia, though. This article should remain a high-level overview of automatic block signaling. The factoids about the color of text on signage seem to be fancruft and how-to instructions. However, I'll try to integrate it into your image caption as a compromise. — voidxor 17:15, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Identification of automatic vs absolute signals is important to the method of operation and should probably be covered here.Sturmovik (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

That contribution made no mention of absolute block signalling; it described the text and background color on signage for automatic and semi-automatic signals. I felt it was a little in the weeds, but trimmed it and moved it into the caption of the image that shows it. Note that it's also only applicable to the UK. You also argued in the above section that this article should focus on the block signaling method of operation, and not automatic or semi-automatic signals themselves. If you want to clarify the distinction between automatic and absolute block signalling, and can cite it, please feel free. — voidxor 20:49, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I just meant it should be covered in some better way, but upon further review differentiation of automatic and non-automatic signals should likely be put under the Railway Signaling main page as its a universal concept used in multiple types of block working.Sturmovik (talk) 22:50, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

@Sturmovik: Is this the page you where referring to Railway signalling?--I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes.Sturmovik (talk) 14:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Where would SIMBIDS system best fit in?

Where would Simplified Bi-directional Signalling (SIMBIDS) system best fit in?What SIMBIDS is.--I Like The british Rail Class 483 (talk) 22:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

History section

I have no idea how editing Wikipedia articles works but I really think you should do something about the final paragraph of the "History" section which says "Automatic signals have been in use since 1926 in the UK, the first one in the UK was installed in the Wolverhampton area." and then quotes footnote 5 which is a source about road traffic signals. I believe the Liverpool Overhead Railway is the first British railway to use automatic signalling in the form of powered semaphore arms in 1893 and then fully upgraded to colour light signalling in 1921 (according to this websitehttps://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/liverpool-overhead-railway/, I'll look into some corroborating sources for that - there should be plenty). Contrapunctus.mammalia (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Contrapunctus.mammalia: First of all, welcome to Wikipedia! We are always in need of more editors, so I would encourage you to slowly learn more about editing. It's really not that difficult, though I would recommend starting off small and always including a reference as you did above.

You make a good point about the traffic-signal reference and I have removed the offending paragraph for now.

However, I have two concerns about your suggested correction. First, SignalBox.org is somebody's personal website, which we don't allow as sources. Second, I'm not convinced that what he's writing about is automatic block signalling. It sounds like "automatic" could simply mean powered or remotely operated—not automatic block operation. — voidxor 00:44, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@Voidxor Yeah, okay. Common consensus tends to assert that LOR was the first, and you can see this said all over in most un-serious sources, including Wikipedia's own page for it. But common knowledge could be commonly false. So I've fished out a more serious source; Alan Williams and Geoffrey Kitchenside's Two Centuries of Railway Signalling (2cnd edition (revised), Ian Allen 2016).

Liverpool Overhead Railway opened in 1893 with a strange method of operation for signalling movements outside of the terminus stations (p102). Semaphores were moved by motors and triggered by the passing of trains and it's implied to have been done without direct supervision and so counts as an automatic system.

Train detection is where things become odd. Track circuits weren't used, instead, the back carriage of the train was fitted with a wooden arm that struck switches at the lineside which operated circuits to control the action of the signals. I'm not sure of the specifics, but i think the striking of one of these switches (in the book called 'contact boxes') simultaneously puts the singal behind the train to danger and the main one before that to 'proceed' once another circuit had proved the first signalled had fully returned to danger. Considering only one kind of EMU of a specific length was used on the line, you could believably operate it like that with provision for overlaps.

In 1897, a government body decided they should use traditional absolute block working instead. But in 1903 a new system of automatic working was brought about with another strange method of train detection. Restoring the signal to danger was triggered by treadle between the running rails depressed by a shoe on the train. Releasing the signal further back to proceed was achieved by a different shoe which was electrically energised by the train's traction power and made contact with another component between the rails.

A rudimentary train stop system came about in 1917 using even more brief electrical contacts. But in 1921, more normal track circuit block was installed using colour light signals in daytime as well as nightime which was a first.

The first use of track circuit operated automatic signalling was by the LSWR in 1901 between Andover Jn and Grateley. This used semaphor signals operated pnumatically (p 109).

In terms of veracity, both authors are affiliates of the Institution of Railway Signal Enginners (although this book is not endorsed), are editors or columnists in prominent railway periodicals and one is a former signalling engineer for BR. Unfortunately, the book does not really cite any of its sources.

It's a very big and detailed book so it will be tempting to use it for lots of things moving forward, but it may prove to corroborate some of it's info considering how niche topics can become - especially if you want a source of equal reliability. Contrapunctus.mammalia (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Contrapunctus.mammalia: You sound certain about some of this and conjecturing other things. Can you whittle all of this down to one conservative sentence about LOR being the first? And does the source you cite (Williams & Kitchenside) actually support such a statement? If so, I will gladly add it to the article if you don't want to. — voidxor 20:06, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm only conjecturing about the finer details of LOR's solution to train detection, signal interlocking and operational procedure, which is a historical oddity that didn't influence any other system and -most importantly- is not relevant detail to this article. I would say;

"The first use of automatic block signalling in the United Kingdom was installed on the Liverpool Overhead Railway on its opening in 1893. Instead of track circuits, the system used a setup of trackside mechanical, and later, electrical instruments (both functionally similar to treadles) that made contact with passing trains in order to trigger motor-operated mechanical signals. The first use of track circuit operated automatic block signalling in Britain was installed in 1902 by the LSWR's West of England line between Andover junction and Grateley which operated pneumatically powered mechanical signals [citing: Kitchenside and Williams, 109]."

That's the most concise version of what I found out that still includes all the same amount of detail. I understand if you'd want to cut this down. Contrapunctus.mammalia (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done, thanks! — voidxor 22:47, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Contrapunctus.mammalia: FYI there's a larger issue of the article communicating what ABS is about compared with other block systems (manual, stuff with traffic control, CBTC, etc). The history section should try and support that by highlighting concepts of train detection, how the automation was achieved (relay logic, pole lines, etc) and the associated "firsts" and other milestones that help in this regard. The important part is that ABS is automatic in that it is different from "controlled" signaling at interlockings and it lacks external traffic control. It was created in a world without wide area telecoms and very expensive relays. I've been trying to formulate a general overhaul of this page for a while, but I haven't had the time to really dig into Elements of Railway Signaling to get sufficient refs to satisfy people. If anyone wants to flesh out the History section consider the above theme.Sturmovik (talk) 12:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been thinking about these mercurial distinctions. The opening sentence says that ABS is referred to as Track Circuit Block in the UK. However, TSB is more of a nation specific signalling philosophy and stands in contrast with the other protocols used in GB (mainly Absolute Block but also ETCS, CBTC and TVM). Maybe I'm too stuck in lore about British practises but is it a requirement that signals do not feedback in anyway to a signaller somewhere for a system to be considered ABS?

Do railways out there operate with isolated automatic signals that don't show up on someone's display? British TSB signal boxes (which cover many 10s of miles of track across multiple routes) obviously include lots of automatic signals and (especially in the old days) there was often no way to set those signals to red from the signal box. But from the very start the signals' aspect, status of the track circuit(s), and train reporting number as it pertained to the different block sections were displayed on control panels - and some automatic signals were fitted with emergency buttons that would set them to red. At some point in the 21st century it was decided to have all automatic signals have an emergency button therefore rendering all signals as semi-automatic or controlled.

I'm telling you all these gory details because - wouldn't this make TSB a nation specific form on Centralised Traffic Control? The article on that makes no mention of UK practice (it did start in America, I'm sure) - but TSB surely should not be mentioned on the Automatic Block Signalling article and instead on the CTC one.

And more interestingly, do practices from other countries necessitate a whole discussion about ABS? Because from the perspective of British TSB, automatic signals are not really their own thing - it's just a way that some signals operate. If the answer is 'yes', that's very interesting and - I think - should be front and centre on this article.

I suppose, ideally you'd flesh out all the country specific articles first in order to see what the common themes are and then construct and organise the higher order topics. Contrapunctus.mammalia (talk) 00:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

References